Ben Shelley: Who is the second-best forward on the Islanders?

2nd best forward on the isles???

A bit like the 2nd most comfortable deck chair on the Titanic...no?

JP Pageau

I went with Lee. His leadership was the difference for me, along with his willingness to battle along the boards. With all due respect, Ben, I think you placed too much emphasis on offensive stats. You did mention Lee for his defense, but if you're asking the question "who's the 2nd best forward?", then you need to look at stats that take many factors into account. +/- is one of the simplest, but it's a bit flawed. You maybe have to consider some of the advanced stats like Corsi.

By the way, I'm not even sure I would have included Bailey in the vote (for all the reasons I recently wrote about). I probably would have included Cizikas before Bailey. Pageau may eventually prove to be more valuable as well, but his sample size is too small.

I went with Lee. His leadership was the difference for me, along with his willingness to battle along the boards. With all due respect, Ben, I think you placed too much emphasis on offensive stats. You did mention Lee for his defense, but if you're asking the question "who's the 2nd best forward?", then you need to look at stats that take many factors into account. +/- is one of the simplest, but it's a bit flawed. You maybe have to consider some of the advanced stats like Corsi.

By the way, I'm not even sure I would have included Bailey in the vote (for all the reasons I recently wrote about). I probably would have included Cizikas before Bailey. Pageau may eventually prove to be more valuable as well, but his sample size is too small.
- JohnScammo

Shat signing.

Bringing this over from last thread.


replacing jt with pageau. Good plan,
- RogerRoeper


Who sad replacing JT with Pageau you (frank)ing Moron. We have a #1 Center in Barzal and needed a shutdown 3rd line center good on the draws.
We are building a complete team that covers all Defense and Offensive elements that make a well rounded team unlike your top heavy PO winning deficient Leafs team.

So:

I went with Lee. His leadership was the difference for me, along with his willingness to battle along the boards. With all due respect, Ben, I think you placed too much emphasis on offensive stats. You did mention Lee for his defense, but if you're asking the question "who's the 2nd best forward?", then you need to look at stats that take many factors into account. +/- is one of the simplest, but it's a bit flawed. You maybe have to consider some of the advanced stats like Corsi.

By the way, I'm not even sure I would have included Bailey in the vote (for all the reasons I recently wrote about). I probably would have included Cizikas before Bailey. Pageau may eventually prove to be more valuable as well, but his sample size is too small.
- JohnScammo

Lee is not among the top 5 forwards on the team. He’s basically a younger version of Andrew Ladd. Eberle, Nelson Cizikas, Beauvillier. Then maybe Lee. Leadership is overrated when you can’t skate above 5 mph

If Casey Cizikas is a top 5 forward on your team you're in deep shayte. Easy guy to root for, but he's at the VERY best a 3rd liner.

Redseerpf:

You probably dont watch enuf games to see it but Cizikas should have easily been a 3rd line center and could probably HAVE been a 2nd line center (5 years ago) if playing with decent talent on the wings.

He’s one of, if not the hardest working players with good wheels and better than average hands. He’s great in the corners/along boards and can also hit & goes to dirty areas. Reminds me a lot of Michael Peca- maybe not as good overall but def in that model of a player. With different coaching he could have had a higher ceiling. He doesnt get PP time and plays vs alot of Top lines as their 4th line is the shutdown line. For 2 yrs+, before Martin went to Leafs, it WAS the best 4th line in NHL by a huge margin. In fact, they were better than most 3rd lines.

If you give me a team of all Cizikas’ as forwards, they would beat alot of teams.

2nd best forward on the isles???

A bit like the 2nd most comfortable deck chair on the Titanic...no?
- bruceflyers

zzzzzzzz

Redseerpf:

You probably dont watch enuf games to see it but Cizikas should have easily been a 3rd line center and could probably HAVE been a 2nd line center (5 years ago) if playing with decent talent on the wings.

He’s one of, if not the hardest working players with good wheels and better than average hands. He’s great in the corners/along boards and can also hit & goes to dirty areas. Reminds me a lot of Michael Peca- maybe not as good overall but def in that model of a player. With different coaching he could have had a higher ceiling. He doesnt get PP time and plays vs alot of Top lines as their 4th line is the shutdown line. For 2 yrs+, before Martin went to Leafs, it WAS the best 4th line in NHL by a huge margin. In fact, they were better than most 3rd lines.

If you give me a team of all Cizikas’ as forwards, they would beat alot of teams.
- jmo16

Lots of "ifs" in that evaluation.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Lee is not among the top 5 forwards on the team. He’s basically a younger version of Andrew Ladd. Eberle, Nelson Cizikas, Beauvillier. Then maybe Lee. Leadership is overrated when you can’t skate above 5 mph
- BringNYIhome

Leadership is overrated?? OK, we'll agree to disagree. I also mentioned some other areas where Lee is good, such as his play without the puck. By the way, I do appreciate that you did NOT include Bailey in your list.

Lots of "ifs" in that evaluation.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
- redseerpf

OK, then, Cizikas has the best +/- on the entire team this season. No "ifs".

OK, then, Cizikas has the best +/- on the entire team this season. No "ifs".
- JohnScammo

Chandler Stephenson also leads his team. Oh, and Ryan Graves leads the entire NHL.

Redseerpf:

You probably dont watch enuf games to see it but Cizikas should have easily been a 3rd line center and could probably HAVE been a 2nd line center (5 years ago) if playing with decent talent on the wings.

He’s one of, if not the hardest working players with good wheels and better than average hands. He’s great in the corners/along boards and can also hit & goes to dirty areas. Reminds me a lot of Michael Peca- maybe not as good overall but def in that model of a player. With different coaching he could have had a higher ceiling. He doesnt get PP time and plays vs alot of Top lines as their 4th line is the shutdown line. For 2 yrs+, before Martin went to Leafs, it WAS the best 4th line in NHL by a huge margin. In fact, they were better than most 3rd lines.

If you give me a team of all Cizikas’ as forwards, they would beat alot of teams.
- jmo16

Casey is a great fourth line center and that’s exactly what he is IMO. I never envisioned him as a third line center or second line center. I know a lot of islander fans have this thought process but i just don’t see it. Just my opinion. He is great where he is and couldn’t be happier he’s on this team. Now if he could only stay healthy

Chandler Stephenson also leads his team. Oh, and Ryan Graves leads the entire NHL.
- redseerpf

A couple of solid players. And so? I understand that +/- is an imperfect stat, but at least it takes into account play without the puck. Offensive stats get the glory, but if they were all that mattered, then Toronto would be the reigning Stanley Cup champs.

Casey is a great fourth line center and that’s exactly what he is IMO. I never envisioned him as a third line center or second line center. I know a lot of islander fans have this thought process but i just don’t see it. Just my opinion. He is great where he is and couldn’t be happier he’s on this team. Now if he could only stay healthy
- Cptmjl

Agreed, but I think overall he's more valuable to the team than Bailey. That was my only point.

Agreed, but I think overall he's more valuable to the team than Bailey. That was my only point.
- JohnScammo

Not debating that I’m no defender of Bailey and my post was in reference to what jmo 16 stated.

JP Pageau
- jmatchett383

That's not good when he's your second best.

Leadership is overrated?? OK, we'll agree to disagree. I also mentioned some other areas where Lee is good, such as his play without the puck. By the way, I do appreciate that you did NOT include Bailey in your list.
- JohnScammo

I think leadership is way overrated. It's fine to have 1-2 intangibles guys, Lou has brought in way too many.

love the Flyers fans trying to chirp the Isles forwards..

just for fun..

since the 2016/17 season..

Lee 122 goals
Brock has 91 goals


Giroux 88
Voracek 72

How much are you paying those 2 guys?

Not debating that I’m no defender of Bailey and my post was in reference to what jmo 16 stated.
- Cptmjl

Dang, I guess I was so bored I was looking for an argument.

I think leadership is way overrated. It's fine to have 1-2 intangibles guys, Lou has brought in way too many.
- RogerRoeper

You're right. After all, what does Lou know about building winning teams?

Dang, I guess I was so bored I was looking for an argument.


- JohnScammo

Okay since you're that bored I'll say Bailey belongs in the conversation. I've bashed him on here for years, but he's been much better the past 4 years than he was in the past. He can still be infuriating and will become invisible, but the guy has been putting up points and that's something the Isles struggle with.

Chandler Stephenson also leads his team. Oh, and Ryan Graves leads the entire NHL.
- redseerpf

Speaking of “ifs”......

IF the Leafs payroll was expanded to $100million they would still find a way to lose to the oldest backup goalie in the NHL, er, Zamboni driver.